Dundjinni Logo Dundjinni Logo Dundjinni Logo

Forums

Active Topics  :  Memberlist  :  Search  :  Help  :  Register  :  Login
Help Dundjinni! Rate This Website at RPG Gateway

Product Releases
 Dundjinni Mapping Software - Forums : Product Releases
Subject Topic: EULA update (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
jdale
Legend
Legend


Joined: 09/27/2004
Location: United States
Posts: 515
Posted: 05/01/2008 at 9:10am | IP Logged  

I think an important issue is the omission of section 2.e. from the old EULA. I assume the intent here was to remove the limitations on commercial use, but the original 2.e. also contained this (note that the current 2.e. was previously 2.f.):

"then you may use the Software Product to create and publish maps and adventures for commercial purposes provided that all art assets and graphics included in such maps and adventures have been created by you personally or come from general commercial graphics creation programs (such as Adobe Photoshop and CorelDraw) or public domain artwork and the text portion of the adventure does not use any portion of the style and formatting provided by the Software Product;"

Now parts of that are clearly irrelevant now. But, this is the section that would have granted permission to use your own art in board games, computer games, etc, and it has been omitted from the new EULA.

It would be nice to have more clarity on the definition of "Tabletop Gaming" vs "Board Game" but I think (with no legal training) that the explanations and examples given by DE would carry some weight there so that is less of an issue.

__________________
See my website for Dundjinni Photo and Paint Shop Pro tutorials
Back to Top View jdale's Profile Search for other posts by jdale Visit jdale's Homepage
 
Kepli
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Avatar

Joined: 01/04/2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16728
Posted: 05/05/2008 at 1:24am | IP Logged  

Nice to see you on the forums again JDale



__________________
You can never have enough vines - Vines are good - Vines help you - Vines are cool ...
Back to Top View Kepli's Profile Search for other posts by Kepli Visit Kepli's Homepage
 
jdale
Legend
Legend


Joined: 09/27/2004
Location: United States
Posts: 515
Posted: 05/06/2008 at 11:05am | IP Logged  

I stop in occasionally. There's just too much to catch up on. Now if someone updated the CSUAC... heck, I would pay for a DVD of all the user art if it was classified and organized.

__________________
See my website for Dundjinni Photo and Paint Shop Pro tutorials
Back to Top View jdale's Profile Search for other posts by jdale Visit jdale's Homepage
 
Kepli
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Avatar

Joined: 01/04/2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16728
Posted: 05/06/2008 at 12:10pm | IP Logged  

Cecil is working on it again

__________________
You can never have enough vines - Vines are good - Vines help you - Vines are cool ...
Back to Top View Kepli's Profile Search for other posts by Kepli Visit Kepli's Homepage
 
Yahzi
Hireling
Hireling
Avatar

Joined: 09/17/2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2
Posted: 08/17/2008 at 11:53am | IP Logged  

Mindy wrote:
If you're not sure whether your intended use falls within the license, you should contact webmaster@dundjinni.com with your specific questions.

No, I'm sorry, if I'm not sure whether my intended use falls within the license, I'm just not going to use your product.

I've been thinking about buying Dundjinni for years. I love the concept. But if I want to use one of my adventures in one of my novels, or vice versa, suddenly I have a problem. And board games - 4e is practically a board game already. I can publish maps for D&D but not for D&D Minis?

I understand you're trying to protect your IP. However, you've successfully protected your IP into obscurity. Every time I come back to this site I am disappointed by how small the community remains. Remember the Macintosh? Closed box. 5% of the market. Remember the PC? Open box. 95% of the market. There's a lesson in there somewhere...

Of course, the people who invented the PC didn't particularly profit off of the PC design. On the other hand, they made a lot of profit selling parts, applications, and operating systems. Dundjinni could make a lot of money selling art-packs to millions of wanna-be designers. A lot more than selling their program to a handful of people.

Google DAZ. Notice that they give their modeling software away for free. They have a completely open commercial license (I know, because my wife sells images she generates with their product). They make their money on selling models, meshes, textures, and objects. You know... art packs.

They're making a lot of money. How much money are you making? I don't know, but I do know this: none from me. :(

I've got half-a-dozen adventures I was ready to package up. Your product would have been awesome. But even worrying, for two seconds, about what will happen to my IP once your IP gets all over it simply isn't worth it.

Sorry.
Back to Top View Yahzi's Profile Search for other posts by Yahzi
 
WayneFrancis
Janni (Moderator)
Janni (Moderator)
Avatar

Joined: 08/31/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 955
Posted: 08/17/2008 at 10:48pm | IP Logged  

Yahzi wrote:
Mindy wrote:
If you're not sure whether your intended use falls within the license, you should contact webmaster@dundjinni.com with your specific questions.

No, I'm sorry, if I'm not sure whether my intended use falls within the license, I'm just not going to use your product.

I've been thinking about buying Dundjinni for years. I love the concept. But if I want to use one of my adventures in one of my novels, or vice versa, suddenly I have a problem. And board games - 4e is practically a board game already. I can publish maps for D&D but not for D&D Minis?

I understand you're trying to protect your IP. However, you've successfully protected your IP into obscurity. Every time I come back to this site I am disappointed by how small the community remains. Remember the Macintosh? Closed box. 5% of the market. Remember the PC? Open box. 95% of the market. There's a lesson in there somewhere...

Of course, the people who invented the PC didn't particularly profit off of the PC design. On the other hand, they made a lot of profit selling parts, applications, and operating systems. Dundjinni could make a lot of money selling art-packs to millions of wanna-be designers. A lot more than selling their program to a handful of people.

Google DAZ. Notice that they give their modeling software away for free. They have a completely open commercial license (I know, because my wife sells images she generates with their product). They make their money on selling models, meshes, textures, and objects. You know... art packs.

They're making a lot of money. How much money are you making? I don't know, but I do know this: none from me. :(

I've got half-a-dozen adventures I was ready to package up. Your product would have been awesome. But even worrying, for two seconds, about what will happen to my IP once your IP gets all over it simply isn't worth it.

Sorry.


So you are upset that Dundjinni Enterprises, Inc. does not license their artwork to be used in other products?

Dundjinni is a software package first that allows you to use artwork from many sources. If you make a map with Dundjinni or CS3 (aka Photo Shop) you'll have the same issues with IP. i.e. if you are using artwork from any source where you do not hold copyright then you'll need to insure that each piece's copyright allows you to use it in the way that you intend. Dundjinni makes the copyright of its artwork clear and if you it isn't clear to you we welcome you to ask.

Complaining that Dundjinni isn't free is much like complaining that CS3 isn't free. I'm sorry you are unhappy with this business model.

Dundjinni is far from a closed box. Dundjinni allows you to use artwork from any number of sources. What Dundjinni provides is a tool to allow you to create your maps faster then you would with standard graphic packages. Dundjinni Enterprises, Inc. also provides specialised art packs for your use with Dundjinni. You are always able to buy art packs for Dundjinni produced by other organisations and there are some very nice ones out there.

At the end of the day it is your responsibility to insure that the artwork you used allows you to use it in the manner you wish to use it. Dundjinni Enterprises, Inc. can not say that all artwork on a map created with Dundjinni is allowed to be for commercial work simply because Dundjinni allows users to use any artwork they may add to Dundjinni. Dundjinni Enterprises, Inc. also can not give you permission to break other people/companies IP. Again this isn't a Dundjinni problem as you would run into this same issue if you where using CS3 to create your maps.

If you write a graphic novel based on FR world then you need WoTC's permission. No matter what business model your preferred word processing package uses.

So I'm sorry you've made the decision not to use Dundjinni to make your maps as I believe Dundjinni would have been a perfect fit. I believe you think there is an issue where there really is none. I am assuming that your adventures don't break anyone else's IP/copyright/trademarks
Back to Top View WayneFrancis's Profile Search for other posts by WayneFrancis
 
Kepli
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Avatar

Joined: 01/04/2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16728
Posted: 08/17/2008 at 10:49pm | IP Logged  

Welcome aboard Yahzi

To add to WFs excellent post ...

eh ... I think there is a misunderstanding here. What you describe is definitely within the commercial license of using DJ; it always was. What makes you think this isn't so?

What has changed lately is that most propriety art-packs can now be used for commercial maps as well. Making commercial maps with DJ has always been possible with the user art on this forum or any other free art you can find or create.

Do you have some specific questions about the license?

Edited by Kepli on 08/17/2008 at 10:53pm


__________________
You can never have enough vines - Vines are good - Vines help you - Vines are cool ...
Back to Top View Kepli's Profile Search for other posts by Kepli Visit Kepli's Homepage
 
Cisticola
Legend
Legend
Avatar

Joined: 11/09/2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1874
Posted: 08/18/2008 at 9:58am | IP Logged  

Long time no see Yahzi....

...To echo Kepli...There is a misuderstanding here, because DJ would be ideal for your purposes.

...But what are your main concerns? The way DJ is marketed?

Perhaps DJ can give their software for free, and sell
artpacks to make their money...in fact why not just make it so that the only art you can use in DJ is the artpacks
DJ sell....yeah that sounds good.

....The creativity behind DJ success is its community...
Have a good look around the forums.....you will find
artists producing amazing objects, textures and maps on
a daily basis...what you are suggesting would stifle
that creativity....

....hope you reconsider giving DJ a go....you will not
be disappointed






__________________
Cisticola at DeviantART
Back to Top View Cisticola's Profile Search for other posts by Cisticola Visit Cisticola's Homepage
 
Kepli
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Avatar

Joined: 01/04/2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16728
Posted: 09/16/2008 at 1:36am | IP Logged  

A final note: Mindy is the owner of Dundjinni and she IS Dundjinni Enterprises.
Us Webmasters and Moderators aren't actually part of the company

__________________
You can never have enough vines - Vines are good - Vines help you - Vines are cool ...
Back to Top View Kepli's Profile Search for other posts by Kepli Visit Kepli's Homepage
 
danielpryor
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Avatar

Joined: 10/01/2005
Location: United States
Posts: 943
Posted: 12/01/2008 at 2:04am | IP Logged  

I think one of the concerns he had was the fact possibly of being able to maybe even modify program code or have 3rd party devlopers add/remove code for improving upon the program itself? or did I read that inccorectly?


__________________
Click on the www link to visit my website and checkout some old school 1st and 2nd edition D&D maps!
Back to Top View danielpryor's Profile Search for other posts by danielpryor Visit danielpryor's Homepage
 
WayneFrancis
Janni (Moderator)
Janni (Moderator)
Avatar

Joined: 08/31/2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 955
Posted: 12/02/2008 at 5:41pm | IP Logged  

Hi Daniel,
Open source is a whole other issue I believe,
Yahzi issue is that the software isn't free. I've thought about this and this is what would have to happen for DJ to take a business model like DAZ.

Basically the community artwork would go away.
A large business load would be shifted to Dundjinni Enterprises Inc.
All community artists wishing to submit artwork would have to sign contracts with Dundjinni Enterprise Inc stating things like the work is their own work or they have legal authority to sell, distribute and transfer selling and distribution rights to the artwork.
Dundjinni would probably have to adopt a model like Apple use with their iPod developers where DJ just takes a cut of the profits with one exception. Since iPod's cost money and the more software that is out there, free or not, the more attractive the iPod is to purchasers. Since the request is for a DAZ type model all artwork would cost money, minus specials that might be given to users that sign up for a "Platinum" membership (costing more money upfront. Dundjinni Enterprises Inc would end up just taking a cut of each sale. Probably a minimum amount to cover administration costs then either a fixed amount to cover costs of DJ development per unit sold or a % of the remaining profit (Apples model)

What does this mean for the community?
Free software
All artwork will cost you
You can't even use your own artwork.

The reason DJ's community is small is that table top gaming is just not that big of a market and by its nature only a small subset of that community would use a tool like DJ.

Daz on the other hand has a huge market. I've personally got a half a dozen different friends that have all taken courses on 3D graphics and modeling and non of them will ever use it beyond just playing. Flip that over I've got a half a dozen friends that are interested in table top gaming, all but 1 in my gaming group, and only I would use DJ to make maps with. The others if they do DM don't put that much effort into the game.


Back to an open source model...this even lowers the profits even more. Open source is great for a few types of markets.
1) Large commercial markets where you can make money of things like support
2) Academic projects that might ask for donations but the project is getting worked on reguardless
3) Geek projects where people do them for the geek factor and money is not an issue at all.
4) Commercial products that use an existing open source project as a base because the development cost drop considerably and IP of the final piece is not and issue.

DJ doesn't really fit into this. If you can get table top gaming into #1 then an open source model might work.

Personally I don't work for DJE. I hope Mindy makes money off the work she is putting into Dundjinni Enterprises. This is because I know that while she loves the industry if she can devote more of her time to it that Dundjinni Enterprises can thrive and that has a direct effect on what kind of product that we the customers will receive.

If Dundjinni went to an open source model I know the uptake would be higher but any and all profits would stop almost completely.

This is, of course, my own opinion. As my own opinion you do not have any requirement to agree with any part of it and are allowed to have your own opinion that differs in any amount from my own.

Back to Top View WayneFrancis's Profile Search for other posts by WayneFrancis
 
Skaryn
Hireling
Hireling


Joined: 12/14/2008
Posts: 4
Posted: 12/14/2008 at 10:35pm | IP Logged  

Hmm, I just bought the software, and read through the EULA. I was planning on integrating the maps into a 2d top downish rpg I am developing with TorqueX. It would seem, according to point 2.5 D in the EUlA, this is not possible? Or can I use it, but just avoid all the art that comes with it? (At which point I can use other editors) I just realized I may have tossed some money down the drain. Any thoughts are welcome.
Back to Top View Skaryn's Profile Search for other posts by Skaryn
 
Kepli
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Avatar

Joined: 01/04/2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16728
Posted: 12/15/2008 at 6:59am | IP Logged  

Welcome aboard Skaryn

Just using user-art is ok, but please send an email to the Store with your project info and what you want to use DJ for to see if more is possible
Address: store(at)dundjinni.com

__________________
You can never have enough vines - Vines are good - Vines help you - Vines are cool ...
Back to Top View Kepli's Profile Search for other posts by Kepli Visit Kepli's Homepage
 
Skaryn
Hireling
Hireling


Joined: 12/14/2008
Posts: 4
Posted: 12/15/2008 at 12:20pm | IP Logged  

Thanks for the reply Kepli, it is appreciated. I sent an email to webmaster(at)dundjinni.com earlier, do they goto the same person?
Back to Top View Skaryn's Profile Search for other posts by Skaryn
 
Skaryn
Hireling
Hireling


Joined: 12/14/2008
Posts: 4
Posted: 12/15/2008 at 8:16pm | IP Logged  

So it would seem , based on the Folder Tutorial that I can just delete out the Fantasy/Dungeon and Fantasy/Wild folders, then import images from say the CSUAC, my world creator 2.5++ images, artwork from the user section of these forums into the user folder section, and everything would be ok?
Back to Top View Skaryn's Profile Search for other posts by Skaryn
 
SlatzG
Hireling
Hireling


Joined: 12/17/2008
Posts: 2
Posted: 12/17/2008 at 9:32am | IP Logged  

I'm new to this product, and i'm strongly considering buying it, but had a question about it first. I read the EULA, searched the forums, and haven't quite had an answer to my question pop out at me yet. Could someone, plainly, tell me know the answer? I want to make a map using Dundjinni, publish the map in an adventure, and sell it. Would i be allowed to sell it? What would be required to do so?
Back to Top View SlatzG's Profile Search for other posts by SlatzG
 
Cecil
Janni (Moderator)
Janni (Moderator)


Joined: 05/21/2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
Posted: 12/17/2008 at 11:47am | IP Logged  

Short answer: yes, you could publish and sell a map or adventure for tabletop RPG gaming.

However, if you use any DJ artwork in your product, then there are credit requirements (note: some artpacks, such as the Skeleton key Games material, cannot be used in commercial products). If you do not use any DJ artwork, the credit requirements do not apply.

Caveat: I am not an official spokesperson for DJ

__________________
Every Gamemaster needs an Apprentice
Back to Top View Cecil's Profile Search for other posts by Cecil Visit Cecil's Homepage
 
SlatzG
Hireling
Hireling


Joined: 12/17/2008
Posts: 2
Posted: 12/17/2008 at 11:57am | IP Logged  

Thank you for the reply, nonetheless! If there's anyone that could confirm that, I'd feel much better. No offense, I just don't want to jump into purchasing something I don't 100% know would be suitable for me.
Back to Top View SlatzG's Profile Search for other posts by SlatzG
 
Kepli
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Avatar

Joined: 01/04/2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16728
Posted: 12/17/2008 at 11:35pm | IP Logged  

Welcome aboard SlatzG

I can confirm what Cecil posted.
The only two art-packs you cannot use to create commercial maps are the SKG art-pack and the Reaper Tokens pack. Dundjinni Enterprises doesn't have the rights to give permission for those packs. All other DJ art-packs can be used to create commercial maps. We do require you to add a credit line when doing this.

When using just user-art from this forum, you can do commercial maps without restrictions and no credit is required (but nice to add of course ). But watch out for user-art that has a non-commercial restriction. Best is to not download that art (it's a very, very, very, very small part of the total amount of user art).

If you have more questions or need more details, let us know

__________________
You can never have enough vines - Vines are good - Vines help you - Vines are cool ...
Back to Top View Kepli's Profile Search for other posts by Kepli Visit Kepli's Homepage
 
Kepli
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Dundjinni Master (Admin)
Avatar

Joined: 01/04/2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 16728
Posted: 12/17/2008 at 11:48pm | IP Logged  

Skaryn wrote:
So it would seem , based on the Folder Tutorial that I can just delete out the Fantasy/Dungeon and Fantasy/Wild folders, then import images from say the CSUAC, my world creator 2.5++ images, artwork from the user section of these forums into the user folder section, and everything would be ok?

True, but why throw those folders away? Just don't use art from those folders in DJ when you create a commercial map. However, the default DJ art (from the Wild and Dungeon folders) can also be used to create most commercial maps. Perhaps not the ones you like to create, but that is something you should hear from Mindy.


__________________
You can never have enough vines - Vines are good - Vines help you - Vines are cool ...
Back to Top View Kepli's Profile Search for other posts by Kepli Visit Kepli's Homepage
 

<< Prev Page of 4 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by Web Wiz Forums version 7.6
Copyright ©2001-2003 Web Wiz Guide

This page was generated in 0.6250 seconds.
Contact - About Us - Privacy Statement - Legal Notices - EULA
Copyright © 2003-2007 Dundjinni Enterprises, Inc. All Rights Reserved.