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VarchildMarquee
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 10:50am | IP Logged  

johnpaulstoddar wrote:
Very simple, as already stated, A Boardgame requires a defined playing surface that require set starting places for all pieces.
...
... DJ is best suited for Battlemaps.


Yes, and Battlemaps transform an RPG into a Board game, because the GM or player defines the set starting places for the pieces, and the battlemap IS the defined playing surface.

You try to place your minis on a battlemap and not, in doing so, define a starting place. Your own definition of a board game results in the definition of a battlemap.

Stratego is a board game, and it's a battlemap. MageKnight Dungeons uses a battlemap and it's board game.
Zombies!!! consists of hundreds of modular battlemaps, but it is a board game.

I just want clearly defined rules, and the ambiguity of board games results in the prohibition of battlemaps.

Sure a reference map can be published still, but that leaves a good half of the program's function being wasted.

Another issue... I recently bought an RPG called New Gods of Mankind. The game has some overland continent maps, but has no smaller maps. They're looking for a way to make high definition maps for use in the game. However, they can't use DJ because the publication of maps, even on a overland scale would lead to those maps being utilized as strategy board game maps also.

You see, in the RPG, YOU play a god, and you sit high above in the celestial realm overseeing the activities of humans on the earth. The activities on the earth is primarily a strategy board game, with divine roleplaying affecting the outcome of events transpiring on the maps. The only battlemap use is for the movement of troops, the placement of cities and resources, and the playing out of conflicts between non-divine forces, unless YOU materialize on the earth to get involved.

Does that sound like a board game? Yes it is a board game, but it's also an RPG... But then, all RPG's with battlemaps are both.

A tabletop RPG adventure becomes a board game the first time a battlemap is set up and the GM places the first monster on the map.

And I'm not sure what your gaming groups have been like, but all the groups I've ever played with, the character interaction ceases as soon as a board hits the table to play the game on. Player interaction continues, but in-character banter takes a backseat to strategic calculation and discussion of movement, attack and how best to outmaneuver the enemy. When roleplay stops, is it still a roleplaying game?

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mercutio
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 11:19am | IP Logged  

Yeesh! Talk about splitting hairs.

Mindy already noted that the RPG maps must be in RPG products. That is vastly different from Monopoly. I've actually know someone who "roleplayed" the banker, but that doesn't make Monopoly an RPG.

You appear to be picking nits just to be an ass. Are you intending to create a product that is packaged like Monopoly and played in the same fashion?

How is the game marketed? Can you find it at KayBee toys under the board game section?

Board game - defined.
Merriam Webster online - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/board%20game - ": a game of strategy (as checkers, chess, or backgammon) played by moving pieces on a board "

Roleplaying game - defined.
Dictionary.com - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/role-playing%20game - "a game in which participants adopt the roles of imaginary characters in an adventure under the direction of a Game Master. "

And from wikipedia - "A role-playing game has no winners, the main purpose of the game is to have fun playing it. That makes role-playing games fundamentally different from board games, card games, sports and most other types of games. "

And from Wizards of the Coast - "What is a roleplaying game?
The D&D game is a fantasy game of your imagination. It is part acting, part storytelling, part social interaction, part war game, and part chance. You and your friends create characters that develop and grow with each adventure they complete. One player is the Dungeon Master (DM). The DM controls the monsters and enemies, narrates the action, referees the game, and sets up the adventure. Together, the Dungeon Master and the players make the game come alive."


ALSO - if there is a specific question, the EULA does indicate that you should contact DJ Enterprises with the details and they'll make the final decision.

Edited by mercutio on 04/29/2008 at 11:20am


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heruca
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 11:37am | IP Logged  

Please, there's no need to be insulting. Keep it civil.

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aegean
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 11:48am | IP Logged  

::woot::

yeah!!! just wished I read before mercutio edited it at 9:20pm, about time these threads got more spicy



::woot::

break out the gloves boys!!!

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VarchildMarquee
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 11:55am | IP Logged  

Thanks, mercutio. You actually helped.

Although, the Merriam Webster definition of a board game fundamentally excludes a vast number of otherwise known board games.

Meanwhile, the Dictionary.com definition for a roleplaying game open-endedly includes board games like DragonStrike, Heroquest, and Clue: The Great Museum Caper.

The Wikipedia definition of a roleplaying game is superb, but fails to understand the nature of winning and losing. If all the players die or fail to meet the goal of an encounter, they feel very much as if they have lost. If they defeat their enemies they have most definitely won the encounter and get rewarded for it, usually in the form of treasure.

And using a definition of an RPG based on D&D standards is just limiting, as D&D has strayed as far away from the spirit of "roleplaying" as possible in exchange for strategy hack and slash dungeon crawling, which by my arguments is a Board Game, especially if played on a battlemap.

You can argue all you like that I'm doing this to be an ass, it doesn't make my argument any less important. And attacking me doesn't add any credence to your argument.

However, thank you for reminding us of the indication to contact DJ Enterprises with the details. When I have something to propose to them I will direct it to them.

Until then, I'd like to find out the actual boundaries, or help identify them. Kepli has agreed that the distinction between board game and role playing game needs to be better defined, and I'm trying to help in that regard, as it directly affects the EULA the best thread to host this argument is this one. As Kepli also said, "Maps made for a RPG module/adventure/campaign could be seen as boardgame-like, but those are only meant to spice up a roleplaying game, not as the main focus of a game. Take away the map and you can still play the adventure..." As such, Battlemaps could very well be disallowed from the publication clause as they inherently are board game-like, and are an unnecessary resource. Industry is driven by what is necessary.

Edited by VarchildMarquee on 04/29/2008 at 11:57am


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aegean
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 12:00pm | IP Logged  

typo error.....

Edited by aegean on 04/29/2008 at 12:01pm


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aegean
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 12:00pm | IP Logged  

Red text

Hot and spicy



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Cisticola
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 1:01pm | IP Logged  

....Call me simple (and I am)....but role-playing
games.....are well, where you role-play......
....Is that not the point?....'Hack and Slash' funny
term, nope not listed in my AD&D DMs guide....

....Battlegrounds is an accessary...not a game...
'unnescessary resource'...funny choice of words...

...Red Text....cool

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mercutio
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 1:23pm | IP Logged  

Quote:
You can argue all you like that I'm doing this to be an ass, it doesn't make my argument any less important. And attacking me doesn't add any credence to your argument.
That wasn't my intent. I was pointing out that the incessant arguments, despite direct answers (which I think are very clear, not murky like you think) were deliberately provocative and not due to any real interest in what the answers were.

That said, binding legal text would be even more obfuscatory than the plain language "in support of the RPG industry" that was indicated in the posts here. Arguing for more details will actually lead to more confusion. The last time I read a mortgage contract I had to have a lawyer explain the stupid thing. I think that should be avoided in this context as much as possible.

Example - the Open-Gaming License that Wizards of the Coast put out was dense, but also easy to understand. The legalese which you seem to be arguing for would have drive that license into the dirt before it could come of use.

Even more problematic is as I indicated - the definitions themselves are squishy, which is why there are catch-all clauses.

I think, short of opening DJ for all commercial use (excepting the guidelines listed for DJ proprietary art) you won't be happy. But that is not DJ's intent. It was made as a tool for role-playing and in support of RPG creators. While I can see how the argument could be made that D&D is a board game (though I strongly disagree), the reverse could not be said of Monopoly (it is not an RPG). So the only compromise, even in legalese, would be to prohibit it's use in "any board game that lacks system- or rule-defined role-playing elements, including but not limited to Monopoly, chess, or backgammon"

Even that is squishy, though.

Really, I think the license can't be much more definitive without being more restrictive.

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aegean
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 1:44pm | IP Logged  

oh come on!!!! these threads are for art.... art... ART!!!

This "commentary" for want of a better word are pushing other peoples art threads off the top of the list. ı just spent 2 days doing a large (albeit poor with typos) tut for the love of Dundjinni and the community here at large, and for what?

To decide if VarchildMarquee is a red texting "ass" or not? If people wish to decide whether VarchildMarquee is an "ass" read (or just scoot through if you lack a decade or two) his blogs beneath his posts, I'll set a vote later.

Any way back to art for arts sake please - any questions about EULA's post 'em to the powers that be.

This "drunken ass" is now off to bed.

rant over....

having massive productive posts knocked off top spot for this..... Allah protect us.....


ae

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Cisticola
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 2:12pm | IP Logged  

...there is only one thing I can say to that ae....

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Kepli
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 2:13pm | IP Logged  

Again ... only the Fluid art is restricted in use. You can create commercial board games using DJ in combination with user art. It has also been explained that DJE doesn't own the rights to make the Fluid art commercially available for everything.

Ae: since this is an announcement, it won't effect the art list

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VarchildMarquee
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 4:57pm | IP Logged  

This is the last time I'm posting to this thread. There are too many people unwilling to listen and willing to criticize. There is a bigger reason behind me wanting closer examination and definition of the rules in the EULA than making a Monopoly board game with Dundjinni, which I personally think would be the hugest waste of Dundjinni's array of wonderful tools, but obviously everyone thinks is the only thing I want to do. Before I leave this thread behind I have one final thing to say about it.

But first, thank you again, Kepli. You are always helpful. If you say we can publish commercial board games with user art, I will take your word on it.


That is not what the EULA says though.

There is no "with user created art" clause in the EULA as it presently exists, or at least I haven't found it after fifteen close examinations. I quoted it once before, I'll try to paraphrase it as best I can this time.

Section 2, subsection d specifically provides the user with the right to "create and publish printed or digital maps and adventures;" it includes the right to import user art, export the output to one of the formats built into the program, use the output for tabletop gaming, and make the material available for download. It also specifies that it does not grant the right to use the program or output for computer/video games, board games, or "books or products not related to tabletop gaming." It also specifies we must adhere to all requirements within the EULA.

Does anyone see why this bothers me so much yet?

I am not trying to get anyone to expand what we can do with DJ. I'm trying to make someone realize we haven't been given the right to do anything more than we were before. There hasn't really been any change beyond the wording. Yes it says the user can publish the work, but it doesn't extend that to any company the user might have to hire or sell the work to in order to get it published. It also has no clause expressly permitting the sale of the output from the program. But, as part of Section 2, the EULA does specifically state:

All rights not expressly granted as permitted hereunder are, to the extent permitted by law, reserved to DE and its licensors, including without limitation, all right, title, and interest in the Software Product, in all languages, formats, and media anywhere throughout the world.

We are the licensees... So what isn't mentioned specifically as being permitted to us, we don't have permission to do using Dundjinni or its output.

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Kranyar
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 6:05pm | IP Logged  

Mindy wrote:
In the meantime, it is our policy that the restrictions on use of DJ output are limited to output containing DJ art only. If you use only user art in DJ, you can use the resulting output for commercial purposes such as board games and software.


If Mindy were to give her legal position within Dundjinni Enterprises and state that she has the right to speak on behalf of the company would that satisfy you? I assume she works for DE, but I've never seen that made 100% clear. The forum titles certainly don't make clear who is an employee, owner, or volunteer.

So long as she has the right to speak for the company, then after making the public statement that she made in the quote above, DE would be forced to enforce the EULA including the definition within her statement.

I believe that Mindy's statement was very clear as to the allowable use of the program. If that wouldn't satisfy you, then I doubt anything done or said here ever could. If that is the case, then you need to be directly talking to DE and their legal staff, and not here on the forums.
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Cecil
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 6:22pm | IP Logged  

There is a difference here in what the EULA says and what DE's intent is. For instance, section 8.4 of the EULA indicates that credit requirements do not apply when using User Art (see below)

8.4 The credit requirements set forth in Sections 8.1 and 8.2 shall not apply to maps or adventures that do not contain any of the art assets or any text style or formatting provided in the Software Product.

But that does not change that section 2.x restricts the use of DJ from supporting boardgames, etc.

The INTENT is for the user-art to be available for any use, even if DJ is used to put it together.


Fortunately, there is a simple solution that, if exercised, will mean that no one has to get spun up about what we can and cannot use the program for: ask for specific permission for what you want to do. If you have DE's permission, in writing, you essentially have an extension of the license.

(Note: I recommend asking in a private email)


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forumLurker
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 7:51pm | IP Logged  

Honestly, I think this whole thread is a bit overblown. I don't get what all the fuss is about... Mindy specifically states that you can make the following:
Mindy wrote:
Printed maps for tabletop gaming


Well, I use my printed maps for D&D Minis gaming on the tabletop. It'd only be a breach of the EULA if they were used on the *floor* -- I mean, seriously, people.


On a more serious note, I find it odd that the EULA doesn't actually specify any kind of miniatures use, despite the fact that that Armor Wars art pack's main selling point was that it was a Heroclix tie-in, the use of the Reaper logo and licensed IP to advertise the tokens, quotes from Privateer Press which mentions the Warmachine miniatures game, etc. In other words, there's a huge amount of advertising aimed at grabbing the miniatures-gamer market, but not a whole lot to support it in the EULA. I guess this is why Mindy said "tabletop gaming" and not "tabletop roleplaying," though I could be wrong.


@VarchildMarquee: The whole thing about user-art is that
user-art posted to the DJ forums is done so with the understanding that the user is making it freely availible to Dundjinni Enterprises (DJE) without royalty or license fee, so that DJE can use user-made maps in displays, advertisements, etc. This is part of the Website Terms of Use/Legal Notices found at the bottom of every screen. And for a bit more explanation,see this thread. This factors in two ways: first, DJE only has distrubution and modification rights over user-art, and thus can't claim ownership over it to include user-art in the EULA, which is why it's never been mentioned there. Second, the unspoken rule is that user-art is copyright-free to conform with DJE's Website Terms of Use. 99% of the artists on here release their art as essentially copyright-free to everyone anyways, so the assumption that user-art is in the public domain is valid.

Hence, now as always, user-art is commercial free art, with the EULA only applying to art/maps/logos/etc. created by Dundjinni Enterprises, accordingly, and any of the Fluid Entertainment art that they own copyright over. Short and simple: you can use Dundjinni to make commercial board games but only if you use user-created art, which has been true for as long as the DJ EULA has been around. However, the new EULA has opened up the DJE art on top of that created by users.

Hope this clears up a few things.
~lurker~

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WayneFrancis
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Posted: 04/29/2008 at 11:24pm | IP Logged  

Thank you forumLurker. I think you put it in very good terms. I'm not sure why VarchildMarquee doesn't like the EULA and thinks it means something different. Is he/she a lawyer specialising in corporate and commercial law?

DJ art use to not be allowed to be used in commercial modules without additional licensing. It can now be used to create hard copy maps to be used in commercial modules.

The reason, from my understanding, why this limitation on "table top" gaming is in place is becuase of issues with artwork in electronic formats outside of Dundjinni.

For example if I wanted to sell my Virtual Table Top program I could not distribute it with maps made with DE artwork because of issues of said artwork being in an electronic format outside of Dundjinni and the DRM that is in place for DE artwork.

Sure someone could scan in a map and cut out artwork and bring it back into DJ but that is a lot of work and the quality would not be the same.

As far as user art goes. My understanding is that if you post up original artwork it is free use unless the artist specifies otherwise. DE does not have the right to override an artists terms of use just like Adobe does not have the right to say that if you use copywrited artwork within CS2 that the owners copywrite does not apply.

So basically copywrite for DE artwork allows use for commercial printed maps with out further licensing from DE, where it did not allow this before.
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heruca
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Posted: 04/30/2008 at 12:00am | IP Logged  

WayneFrancis wrote:
For example if I wanted to sell my Virtual Table Top
program I could not distribute it with maps made with DE artwork because
of issues of said artwork being in an electronic format outside of Dundjinni
and the DRM that is in place for DE artwork.


Actually, I thought the new EULA allowed DJ maps with DJ art to be used in
VTs. But after re-reading section 2d, I think you may be right.

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heruca
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Posted: 04/30/2008 at 12:03am | IP Logged  

Never mind. Mindy already cleared that up for us.

Mindy wrote:
In general, the changes were meant to allow our users to
use the product for RPG gaming on tabletops or virtual tabletops or for
printed adventures or RPG support books.

So, to give some examples where use of DJ and DJ art is permitted for
commercial purposes:
Digital or printed adventure modules
Printed maps for tabletop gaming
Digital maps for use on virtual tabletops


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WayneFrancis
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Posted: 04/30/2008 at 9:13pm | IP Logged  

Ah cool, thanks for the clearification. Mindy does extend the use even further then I thought. It is good that digital modules are included.
So I'm even more confused what the actual complaint is.
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