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Subject Topic: EULA update (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Kepli
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Posted: 03/21/2008 at 2:37am | IP Logged  

Hi all,

Mindy has given us all some excellent news about the EULA in the post about the release of the 1.0.7 Patch.

"The big non-technological change for this patch is the EULA. We’ve listened to your input – and, in response, have decided to open up DJ to commercial use!

In other words, you can create and publish maps and adventures using DJ, including DJ art. (The only exceptions are the SKG Dungeons and Reaper Warlords packs, since we only license those and thus do not have rights to allow such use.) In exchange for using DJ to create maps and adventures for commercial products, we simply request that you provide us with a credit.   For a more precise description of the commercial use allowed as well as the credit required, please see the EULA itself."


If you visit other forums and have seen people complain about the old DJ EULA, please post a link to this post or explain the changes. We think quite some people never use DJ because of the old EULA, so this might make them think about it again


Edited by Kepli on 03/21/2008 at 2:41am


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slashdevnull
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Posted: 03/21/2008 at 3:00am | IP Logged  

Another quick note: The EULA content on the website will be updated within the next few hours with the most recent version. I'll post a heads-up here when it's done.

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slashdevnull
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Posted: 03/21/2008 at 4:08am | IP Logged  

The new EULA has been posted. See the link at the bottom of any page on the site, or just go here: http://www.dundjinni.com/eula.htm .

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Cecil
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Posted: 03/23/2008 at 9:30am | IP Logged  

Thank you very much! This is very good news indeed!

Next question: Is there any option of purchasing the artpacks in PNG format as opposed to DJX?
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heruca
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Posted: 03/23/2008 at 9:47am | IP Logged  

I'd imagine that CC3 users, Photoshop users, and virtual tabletop users
would all be interested in buying PNG artpacks.

The other question that would need addressing then would be "is it OK to
mod the PNGs"?

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Kepli
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Posted: 03/23/2008 at 10:46am | IP Logged  

Ouch, another big update question ...
I think that step is probably a bit too big atm.

It is something we have discussed before. There are consequences we have to take into account ... not an easy decission to make.

Edited by Kepli on 03/23/2008 at 10:49am


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VarchildMarquee
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Posted: 04/03/2008 at 4:29pm | IP Logged  

So the can of worms gets opened...

Taken from EULA:

2. License

Subject to the other requirements of this EULA (including but not limited to the Credit requirements of Section 8, as applicable), you are permitted to:
...(d) use the Software Product to create and publish printed or digital maps and adventures; this shall include the right to import artwork or graphics into the Software Product, export the output of the Software Product into one of the formats permitted by the Software Product's export functionality, create and print out maps and adventures for tabletop gaming, as well as post or otherwise make such maps and adventures available for download; provided that (i) the license afforded under this subsection shall NOT include the right to use the Software Product or its output as part of a computer or video game (whether computer or web-based), board game, or in books or products not related to tabletop gaming, and (ii) shall be contingent upon your compliance with the terms of this EULA,including but not limited to the provisions of Section 8 hereof.


Forgive me for being dense, but I'm confused by the wording of the EULA in regards to what can and can't be published. I know maps and adventures, but for what purposes?

It specifically prohibits computer and video games (would this include virtual tabletop environments? It specifies computer and web-based, and VTE's allow you to play a game over the web...), and board games (So a map formatted to an 8x8 field with distinct lines could not be used by the publisher as a colorful chess board? and anyone making one to these dimensions would immediately be suspect of breaking the EULA? What if your map wasn't intended as such and then used as such by a patron of your website?), but does not truly provide express permission to commercially publish anything. Publishing maps is done every day on the DJ forums and in MapShare and in many other sites on the net, it couldn't earn money before and it was permitted, the new EULA simply doesn't say the words "for free." It also doesn't include the words "for money."

Also, what characterizes "tabletop gaming?" Is the publication limited to just Adventures? Adventures and RPG sourcebooks? Is a novel 300 pages with an index at the back providing maps and stat blocks for the characters and locations considered an RPG sourcebook, and if so is that covered as being related to tabletop gaming? How lenient or strict is the EULA in this regard? At what percent of total content does tabletop gaming related content cease to be part of a work that is tabletop gaming related?

Also, what map content may be included in a published map? The italicized quote above, "(The only exceptions...)" lists two specific instances, but the EULA is vague on actually saying whether the DJ art can be published. It is clear that imported user art can be imported, and that output can be published, but between those two points it is silent on the DJ art and art packs.

I don't want to start building up hopes only to get squashed down after my work hits a bookstore shelf and DJ's owners decide my content doesn't adhere to the EULA.

I will give them credit, the section on giving credit is a smash up job. Very precise and acceptable terms. I'll be happy to obey them, as soon as I know what I can and can't publish for commercial gain and in what manner.

Edited by VarchildMarquee on 04/03/2008 at 4:31pm


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Mindy
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Posted: 04/09/2008 at 5:40pm | IP Logged  

In general, the changes were meant to allow our users to use the product for RPG gaming on tabletops or virtual tabletops or for printed adventures or RPG support books.

So, to give some examples where use of DJ and DJ art is permitted for commercial purposes:
Digital or printed adventure modules
Printed maps for tabletop gaming
Digital maps for use on virtual tabletops
Maps in books/supplements supporting tabletop gaming systems

Examples where use isn't permitted under the EULA:
DJ output used to create a colorful chessboard or other board game playing field
DJ output used in novel or other book not about tabletop gaming
DJ output used in software, whether computer or web-based.

If you're not sure whether your intended use falls within the license, you should contact webmaster@dundjinni.com with your specific questions.


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Sumo
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Posted: 04/13/2008 at 3:17am | IP Logged  

From experience, I am not going to get a "why" question answered, so I will just say that I am extremely disappointed that there are still restrictions on, effectively, everything bar RPG maps.

The user pressure on this subject, it seems to me, was because the restrictive licence meant the product wasn't being used to full capacity and making a viral splash.

So I am still in the position of wanting to use it, without fuzzy concerns.
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Phergus
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Posted: 04/13/2008 at 8:55am | IP Logged  

I also find this very disappointing and not just a little self-defeating on Dundjinni Enterprise's part.

Reading the EULA and Mindy's post it is pretty clear that it is a violation of the EULA to make game boards for use with DnD miniatures or for HeroQuest. I believe you'll find examples for both in the Maps forum.

And, no, they aren't RPGs anymore than Monopoly and chess are RPGs.

Why is it that ProFantasy manages to get this right but not Dundjinni Enterprises? There are a number of CC3 users creating maps for use in novels, brochures and other areas outside of gaming.



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Kepli
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Posted: 04/13/2008 at 11:23pm | IP Logged  

Since 99% of the people use DJ for making RPG maps, I believe the EULA change is a huge step forwards. And to make things clear about using DJ to create commercial boardgames, use in computer games and other products, here is a quote from Mindy: "Just DJ art is limited in use – you can use DJ with user art to create boardgames or computer games." This still limits people in the use of the DJ art, but since we have about 30.000 pieces of user art ...

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Phergus
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Posted: 04/14/2008 at 6:55am | IP Logged  

That's all well and good Kepli but that isn't what the EULA says. Maybe next time the EULA gets updated someone should write down what they want it to mean and then give it to the lawyer.

Kepli wrote:
Since 99% of the people use DJ for making RPG maps,...


Better to have a couple hundred users making RPG maps than thousands of users making maps for whatever they want.

Kepli wrote:
... I believe the EULA change is a huge step forwards.


While an improvement this was an opportunity to completely fix the original bad decision and it was wasted.



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Kepli
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Posted: 04/14/2008 at 10:05am | IP Logged  

Perhaps the EULA could be better, but that doesn't change the fact that only DJ art is restricted. So you can make whatever maps you like using user art.
And of course we still cater to our main audience; the RPG map makers ... for now

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Mindy
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Posted: 04/14/2008 at 10:55am | IP Logged  

Please keep in mind that we only have the rights in DJ art that were granted by Fluid as part of the purchase.

If enough users were willing to pay a premium (say $100-200 apiece) to use DJ art to create commercial boardgames, software, etc - then we could purchase such rights - but I doubt we have enough such interest to make the purchase economically justifiable.

Finally, valid point about unclear EULA language - in the next DJ build, we'll clean it up. In the meantime, it is our policy that the restrictions on use of DJ output are limited to output containing DJ art only. If you use only user art in DJ, you can use the resulting output for commercial purposes such as board games and software.

Edited by Mindy on 04/14/2008 at 10:57am
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Kepli
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Posted: 04/14/2008 at 11:14am | IP Logged  

You know, I never actually knew about those Fluid rights
It does make things a lot clearer   

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aegean
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Posted: 04/14/2008 at 11:20am | IP Logged  

Cool - If due to the original purchase rights will not allow the use of core art then there is little that can be done. Users will just have to work around it by using their own art or art from users.

It would seem to me by what Mindy has just said that there is no mallice on DJ's part its just that their hands would seem tied.

Just my 2 cents for what its worth.

ae

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Cecil
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Posted: 04/14/2008 at 11:34am | IP Logged  

I agree--it seems like DE is providing as much flexibility as they are authroized.

Like anyone else, I would like more. But I certainly understand and appreciate the situation. Thanks!

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Posted: 04/15/2008 at 1:53pm | IP Logged  

Kepli wrote:
And of course we still cater to our main audience; the RPG map makers ... for now


That's fine, but in reality any map you put on a table and use miniatures, tokens, or any other marker meant to represent a player or character while hosting a session of turn-based actions with a goal to success or failure in mind, is a board game. Look at the Buffy the Vampire Slayer Board game or Xena Warrior Princess Board games, or for that matter, Arkham Horror, Zombies!!!, D&D Miniatures, all of these are classified as Board Games. Any tabletop roleplaying session involving the use of a map, when physically set up on a table with representative figures in play, is a board game, so again the line gets blurred. What is legal?

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Kepli
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Posted: 04/16/2008 at 12:57am | IP Logged  

Maps made for a RPG module/adventure/campaign could be seen as boardgame-like, but those are only meant to spice up a roleplaying game, not as the main focus of a game. Take away the map and you can still play the adventure, not so with a boardgame. I think therein lies the difference (or one of them).

I do think we need a better definition of a RPG game compared to Boardgame though. In that I can agree with Varchild Marquee.

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johnpaulstoddar
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Posted: 04/17/2008 at 8:41am | IP Logged  

oh good grief     is there that many lawyers in this world.

How many pages are gonna be wasted on this?

Very simple, as already stated, A Boardgame requires a defined playing surface that require set starting places for all pieces.

Ancient games
Chess
Backgammon
Modren Game
Risk (axis, allies)
Monopoly (go)

All have variation but they all require a defined board to play, without a board you can't play.

Try playing "Life" or "Chutes and Ladders" without a Board or any of the others.

People we have been given the ability to make Maps for Commercial purposes with less restriction quit trying to complicate things..please.

Sure theres more uses for Maps than just RPGs. Novels but lets face it. A DJ Map scaled down to fit in a paperback is gonna suck anyways. DJ is best suited for Battlemaps.

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